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>> well, hello, america, we've got a great show for you. we've got a studio audience and one of the guests said before we get on the air, quite an ambitious project before we go on the air. it may be too ambitious, all we're going to do is talk about revolution. the history of revolution, not revolution like the french revolution or even the american revolution, but the revolutions that have lasting power. the revolutions that changes the world. we're going to talk a little about this guy and that's global revolution. and the thing i find
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interesting about, don't, don't talk about him tonight as a-- as the son of god, instead, let's talk about him as a man. the theory is that some people might have missed him, if he is indeed the messiah, missed him because he wasn't a revolutionary or didn't think-- didn't think so at the time. if you read the words of josefus, a historian back in the day, and wrote jewish antiquities and talked about jesus about another guy they nailed to the tree. he talks about the revolutionaries, so-called messiahs that are up in the hills. well, we don't really know any of the other names of the revolutionaries that lived in his time. what is it that he did that changed the world, global revolution. this guy. there's a lot of people, a lot
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of people that helped mahatma gandhi free india, but how come we know him? and what does he have in common with this guy? and then there's this one, here in america, civil rights revolution. that's what it was, dr. martin luther king. there's malcolm x. malcolm x isn't dr. martin luther king. what's the difference? and what does this guy, this guy, and this guy have in common? because these things may be necessary for us now, as we go into the future. where are we headed and where are the answers? i have to tell you that about a year ago i was trying to figure out, 8-28. i was trying to figure out what was going on. what i was supposed to do, what i was supposed to talk about and people ask me all the time. where do we go from here? where is the guy? where is the president and where is the-- the more i went down the road of trying to figure things
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out, the more i realized that the answer isn't in washington, it's not in politics, it's in here. we have to fundamentally change ourselves. so, as i'm looking to the touch future, the thing i did a year ago, i went back to the beginning. i went to this guy. the first real revolutionary, moses and the ten commandments. so, we're going to have a discussion with people who know about these, these guys. with us, dr. alveda king, the director of african-american outreach for priests for life, she is the niece of dr. martin luther king, jr., the author of "who we are in christ jesus" and also stood with me on 8-28 on the steps of the len con memorial, a brave, brave woman and dear friend, also someone with me, rabbi daniel lappin, founder of american alliance for jews and
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christians and amazing man, someone i'm meeting for the first time dr. robert frankl franklin, the president of moorehouse college where martin luther king graduated and the movement. joining us from illinois on our tv set is gandhi, one of eight surviving grandchildren of mahatma gandhi in the indian house of parliament and research professor university of illinois, urbana champaign and the author of the monume monumental biography, "gandhi" in the middle of it is a picture of him, here it is, on the lap of gandhi, the people, empire. it's an honor to have you with me today. what i want to do start at the beginning and rabbi, start with you, and what was the thing that was-- that your revolutionary because you're a revolutionary
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is moses. so we're going to go moses, jesus, gandhi and then martin luther king. what was they were trying to conquer and what was the main tool that they used? >> well, i think in the case of moses and i think, glenn, instead of calling him my man, i think you have to call me his man, but the main tool, first of all, let's start with that. the main tool is that for a revolution to be successful, it requires a higher purpose. it isn't enough to say, hey, get us out of this predicament or we've got to get out of here, this is really uncomfortable. >> glenn: in other words, it's not do something. we've got to do something. >> exactly, it's not that. so, contrary to popular belief, moses never ever said, let my people go. what he really said every single time was, let my people
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go so that they may serve me in the desert. so, there was always a significant consequence and the value of that is that eve revolution exists on a public, as well as on a personal level so the book of exodus is not just a history of a 3000-year-old movement that reshaped everything, including all western civilization, but it's also a blueprint of personal redemption so each and every one of us has an egypt. i don't know what it is for some people. alcohol it's an addiction, a marriage that needs to be salvaged. somebody wants to get it. everybody has an egypt and goes by definition in the hebrew langge, egypt means something that owe presses, confines, restricts and prevents me from reaching my fullest potential. >> glenn: all right. doctor, tell me about jesus i would say that jesus is revolutionary of love. there are two messages, i would ice right now.
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one, a religion of external behavior. outward acts of piety. he wanted people's dispositions towards others to change and maybe neighbors-- >> am i wrong by saying, rabbi, you might know, too, the josephous story, memories from years ago, but he was not understood at the time because they were looking for a messiah, a conqueror, right? so he was so misunderstood, nobody. >> he was not seeking to establish a new form of government on earth. but he did talk a lot about the kingdom of god, the reign of god in the world which had to do with compassion of poor and those who were outcast and showing greater compassion and mercy and lord toward them. >> glenn: okay, higher purpose and love. now, we go to gandhi here.
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rashman what was the thing that mahatma gandhi was trying to conquer and what was his main tool? >> he was certainly also a passionate fighter for love. he was equally a passionate fighter for justice, he was a fighter for freedom. he wanted not only the people of india to be liberated, he wanted all the oppressed people of the world to be liberated. he of course was committed to nonviolence. but to him, nonviolence was not-- was love, it was forgiveness, but it was also struggle and a fight for justice. it was also an identification with the weakest and the poorest person, the outcasts of india. he also was attached, a believer that all of us were the same. that everybody in his india, the hindus, the muslims, the christians, the jews, the
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sikhs, were the same and his was a revolution of friendship, of unity, of building bridges. i could say more, but that's-- >> no, no, we'll come back, but we're already starting to see the patterns. and dr. alvita king, martin luther king, revolution, civil rights, right? >> absolutely. my uncle, dr. martin luther king, jr., was a follower of jesus christ. he implemented the principals of gandhi and went to moses and the mountain top and embraced all of those tenets and his greatest example was jesus christ and the nonviolence that gandhi practiced was compelling, he looked at violence and everything going on and nonviolence is going to be the method. >> glenn: help me out, rabbi, on moses. because i know gandhi, martin luther king and jesus, committed to nonviolence. >> yeah.
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>> glenn: but-- >> those ten commandments were pretty violent let's say at one point, but that was the lord. >> glenn: right, because he was-- >> i'm sorry, the-- >> he didn't do anything, right. >> yeah, right. i mean, earlier on he did kill an egyptian that he saw attacking his-- one of his brethren. >> glenn: but that's kind of-- he got out of the desert. that's what the desert was all about, right? >> here is one thing that leaps out as a common denominator, glenn. that is that when the revolution is god centric, when the motivation is by a deeper and higher purpose, the personality is trumped by the cause. so, whether it's dr. martin luther king or moses specifically, there is a willingness to not be the center of the scene. moses was willing to die and he knew somebody else would take the children of israel out of egypt, whereas a
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revolution on the left. secularized tend to be personality driven rather than idea driven. >> glenn: let me do one more thing before we move on and that is, i know jesus built up of moses. he didn't come to destroy, he came to add on. >> fulfill the law. >> glenn: yeah, fulfill. i know that dr. martin luther king looked to jesus and also looked to gandhi, but also looked to moses, though, we have dr. martin luther king jesus and they're all coming back to moses. did mahatma gandhi, did he look back to moses as well? was there any-- we may not get there together to the promised land? >> no, he certainly was inspired by moses and very much so by jesus. he was profoundly moved and stirred by jesus, and by the sermon on the mound. by the forgiveness to poverty,
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to simplicity, the equality, so the purity. so gandhi was profoundly stirred by moses and by jesus. before christianity came to him, to india, with empire, with colonialism, with oppression. so that was something that gandhi was aware of. so, but there's absolutely no question that gandhi was deeply stirred by jesus. >> glenn: so the only one here, i'm looking for patterns. the only one here that didn didn't-- that didn't see the success. there's two differences that i see. moses is the only one that wasn't killed for what he did. right? >> well, he was punished by not being allowed into the promised land. so he was never able to
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fulfill his mission. >> glenn: yeah. but that's still-- being shot or-- >> he gets to die an old man. >> glenn: yeah, he gets to die an old man. the other ones don't. there's one difference. the other difference is moses actually accomplished the path of stopping of the oppression. martin luther king did. gandhi did. but jesus didn't see it in his lifetime. he didn't, he didn't stop it, right? >> that's right. he builds a movement. he builds what he understood would become a world transforming movement, but he didn't live to see that on earth. >> glenn: right. >> so the church emerges to carry that forward. >> glenn: okay, so are there any other important differences or similarities before we move into the-- >> one of them is that i think certainly dr. martin luther king, jr. and moses were not looking for greatnessment they were not seeking to lead a political movement.
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for heavens sack, moses was a shepherd and noticed that bush didn't get consumed and from that notice he received a calling as opposed to having exposed naked ambition, which is a feature often found with some of the revolutions. >> glenn: jesus didn't. >> i mean, jesus was please take this away from me and-- >> and i may add that gandhi, also, although he was the leader of the indian independence movement, it's worth noting he did not take any position after india became independent. he was not the prime minister, he was not the president. he was always letting others take the lead and to make the other person great or a great passion with them and gandhi identified himself with the least and the weakest in india and did not tack any position of any kind after indian became independent. >> glenn: what do you remember? what do you personally remember? do you have any real memories of being with him?
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>> sure, i was 12 1/2 when he was killed. i was going to school in new delhi where he spent the last several months of his life and when i was with him, that was a when india was becoming independent and witnessing the clashes between hindus and muslims, there was great violence. >> glenn: alvita and i have talked about this before on mart luin luther king. he knew, he knew. >> he definitely-- >> he was not afraid, but he was afraid. was mahatma afraid? because jesus was. >> he certainly knew, he certainly knew that he was going to be killed. he expected to be killed. and he often said that he-- he asked people who left him please pray for me that i will have the courage when the moment comes and the courage to forgive those who kill me. >> and also jesus in the prayer, take this cup from me,
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i do not want to suffer. no human does and yet there's an acceptance, not my will, but thy will be done. >> glenn: i've got to take a break. the thing with moses, moses says the same thing, who am i, send somebody else, not me. back in just a second.  
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>> life persists, in the midst of untruths. truth persists, in the midst of darkness, light persists, hence, that god be light, he is love. exercise of faith will be the safest, (applaus (applause) >> i find myself living in a time in america that i, i just never ever thought, you know, the teaching of mortgage mutilatilut lute-- martin luther king for me, the teaching of gandhi, moses i
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connected to, but usually on good friday or you know, you're watching-- >> right. >> glenn: jesus i connected to in a different way. i never have thought-- i'm just connecting with these guys in a much different way now and their truth is so universal. back with us now is dr. alvita king, niece of dr. martin luther king, jr. dr. lappin, dr. robert franklin president of moorehouse college and via satellite. the grandson of gandhi. here is what i want to do. i am beginning to look at moses in-- i've read the old testament this year in a completely different way. i mean, it's just-- to me it's on fire right now. the same with the words of dr. martin luther king. so what i want to look at is, i may be going through that, but maybe other people aren't and maybe other people are kind of stock and looking at
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moses as a guy, climbs up on the mountain and throws a rock and you can't relate. so, let's go through each of these and show me where the revolution is of today, that is similar to each of the time. that make sense. >> yes, absolutely. >> so let's start with you, with moses. >> yes, well, first of all, you don't necessarily have to have the physical apparatus of oppression for there to be an egypt-like set of circumstances. egypt is essentially a spiritual oppression. because the terrible temptation of tierney is-- it's almost irresistible seductive allure and people yield to it even in situations of apparent freedom and luxury, even. where the soul is restricted and confined and what it boils down to, i think, and this is a fundamental lesson, is that the enemy of this ultimate
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spiritual freedom is the ego. and to make progress, that ego has to be tamed and trained, trounced and ultimately transcended. >> okay. doctor? >> i think jesus is railing against everything that separates us from god, which is the definition of sin and of course, he preaches a lot about sin and says the answer to that is to return to god and love is that which reconciles us, closes the distance, so materialism, violence, fear of the other, all of these things can separate us from the love of god. i think one other thing that's important to point out, especially in gandhi, certainly the case in moses, jesus, is the fasting, the self-denial, the renunsation they practice. dr. king did some of it, it wasn't as pronounced. certainly in jesus and gandhi
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this radical renunsation of bodily desires and food and the like. there's a discipline. >> glenn: maybe why i was picked not to-- because it's like food, no. all right. let me go to rajmahan. relate to gandhi, how people relate to beganty and what he taught, you know, in a country that's not toughering r sufferir-- suffering from colonialism. >> there are so many things all of our countries are suffering from, corruption, from cruelties and from the division of the world in so many compartments. i think jesus and i believe moses, too, i don't know enough about moses, but i know about jesus and a good deal about gandhi and a fair amount of king. all these, as far as i can see, felt that all humanity
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was one and one of the great oppressionings of our modern world is this idea that some people in the humanity are okay, and others are not okay. and this, as far as jesus, moses, gandhi, king were concerned, all people are my people. and we should have to ask ourselves, are there some people in the world that we don't regard as our people? if the answer to that is yes, then, i think all of these would want us to make a change in our attitude. >> glenn: let me go here and may i throw you a curve ball here? there is-- professor gandhi just said that all people are one and you know, we separate each other, et cetera, et cetera. dr. martin luther king knew that very well. we had separate water fountains, but he still disagreed with people vehemently.
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there were people that he vehemently disagreed and disagreed with him. so there is a separation on thought, but what is the bridge, dr. king? >> for my uncle, the bridge had to be, and would be today, jesus christ. you know, the begotten, the only begotten son of god. and my uncle's shining star, jesus christ. that's the equalizer, the connector, the love of god. he held on to that and then by the example of moses, the example of gandhi, the models and the principles, so the equalizer, the connector is always going to be the divine love of god and that's what helped by uncle to be willing to go to the mountain top. now, jesus christ in bodily form had not been born during the time of moses, but the principle and promise was there, the promise of love.
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>> glenn: isn't it really-- jesus is love. moses was love, right? >> well, the challenge, one of the challenges he faced, which i think is certainly something that your uncle faced as well, which is that it was necessary to unify the very people you were trying to ep had in the first place. it's not as if they all stood up and saluted when you walked on to the field and that's an enormous challenge. >> glenn: but nobody did. did mahatma gandhi, was he recognized immediately as everybody's guy? >> not at all. not at all. and even today there are many people who sharply disagree with him. he wouldn't mind that. he of course saw himself as an imperfect human being so he welcomed and felt he needed criticism. he needed improvement, but i would say that the-- that for gandhi, the common imperfections of humanity, all of it, was a great equalizer. we all fall short.
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every single human being falls short and that is a tremendous equalizer and that of course is what enables us, requires us to forgive one another. so, i would say that this, the common imperfections of humanity was a tremendous bond that gandhi believed in. >> okay. at one point, dr. king said that jesus provided a theory that showed us the way of love. but he looked to gandhi to provide the practical example of how to live it out in the streets during the civil rights movement. so, jesus provides theory in a sense, gandhi provides practice. and i think that's just a wonderful wedding of, you know, an american christian preacher who learned something important from a hindu, gandhi, in his practice of christian love. >> glenn: this is starting to sound almost like the black rog
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rogue mention and mixing these together and trouble. back in just a second. [applause].
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>> i'm patti ann browne. a u.s. scientist and his wife were arrested today by the fbi. accused of trying to help venezuela make a nuclear weapon of the both previously worked as contractors at the los alamos labs in new mexico. today, president obama announced the appointment of
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harvard law professor elizabeth warren to oversee the protection bureau and set rules on credit cards, mortgages and other products. joe torre announces he's retiring from the l.a. dodgers the end of the season. hitting coach don mattingly will replace him. bret's special report. >> bret: coming up, christine o'donnell speaks out at the value voters summit and we're there. president obama side stepped the senate confirmation process today and 27 minutes for special report and now, back to glenn beck. [applause]. [applause]. >> all right. now i'm going to be honest with you, america, now that i've drawn you into my spider
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web, and i have you all wrapped up, i'm going to tell you why i'm doing this show tonight i mean, i don't-- it doesn't take a genius to figure out. we have a situation in america right now where left and right, it doesn't matter. tensions are growing and it's not just america, they're growing in greece and they're growing in europe, in spain, they're growing in england. i have good friends in china, it's growing in china as well. this is a global-- it's almost like the river of slime, if i may. i know we've got martin luther king, jesus, gandhi and moses here, but let me go to dan akroyd. the river of slime in "ghost busters ii" almost like that and the hate is growing and if you're looking for lasting revolution, violence is never
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the answer. hatred. and i have to tell you, be real honest with you, in the last year, i have had to fight back real anger and what would have grown into hatred. and it's tough to do unless you're on your knees an awful lot. but that is what we need to do. so, i don't care if you're left or right, it doesn't matter. i don't care where you're watching in the world. hatred is growing and i brought these four people together because they all know the history of the four great revolutions in mankind, moses, jesus, gandhi, martin luther king. our panel is alvita king, niece of dr. martin luther king, jr. rabbi lappin, dr. robert frank lynnmoorehouse college, and
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the author of "gandhi, the man, the people and his empire", one of gandhi's grandchildren. let's just start here. nonviolence, win with moses, it wasn't-- god was violent, but i don't, i don't see anybody left or right that's going to release locusts. so the importance of nonviolence and peace in all of these. >> well, i think the-- the launching point, perhaps, is the dentist experience. it's a very important principle where you've got a minor little niggling, nagling toothache and you're in the dentist chair and regret coming in and wished you'd lived with what it was, all of a sudden, drilling, injections, pain and root canals and who knows what else. in other words, the initial impact of trying to bring
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about a repair is actually more pain to again with. and that is the lesson that comes out of the book of exodus. that moses is a reluctant leader, as you pointed out, as we were chatting earlier. you know, god says go back and this is what you must say. said, listen, i'm really not the guy. you're going, i've told you, you're the man. so he has to go back and he goes to speak to pharaoh, just as he was told to do and the very next thing that happened is pharaoh issues new edicts, now you people have to produce the same output we're going to give you less to work with and everybody turps on moses and says, wished you'd left us alone. it wasn't so bad until you started up. >> glenn: it's really the same story over and over and over aga again. somebody takes up their cross and it gets worse. you know, my favorite phrase is from unwith of the presidents, i can't remember which one, the truth shall set you free, but it's going to
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make you miserable first, right? >> yes. well, jesus teaches, those who live by the sword will die by the sword and the question is how do you break this vicious cycle of retaliation. and the two incredible moments in the gospels for me, one, jesus at the trial. and p and pilate, accusations are made and he doesn't speak to defend himself and the other cheek. >> glenn: he actually heals one of the soldiers that comes and gets him and said-- >> remember, right, peter, his disciple cuts off the ear once they arrest him. >> glenn: so, us being healers and us being peaceful is important, but now, let's see, because jesus and moses are still hard to relate to because i mean, it's moses and the burning bush and pillar of fire and everything else and jesus is jesus.
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so, let's go, we are going to take a break and come back and we are going to go to gandhi and martin luther king and find out, a, how to put it into practice, if you want change, great. how do you do it peacefully and how do you not hate the people that you so vehemently disagree with? back in a second.
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(applause). >> . >> bret: all right. >> still with us, dr. alvita king, rabbi lappin. dr. franklin and professor gandhi. rajmohan. i'm going to start with you. put it in practical term. fighting one side or the other, you feel like i have a personal revolution or american or global revolution, how do you put peace into practice? >> well, glenn, you mentioned, you know, your own battles with anger and hatred and gandhi had these battles himself. he has written in here that he was a believer in violence when he was a young man and it was ready the book "the kingdom of god is within you" when gandhi was 24 after he
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had two bitter experiences, one at the hands of a british officer in india and then in south africa, a series of bitter experiences. so, gandhi becomes very angry, he's inclined towards violence and then he reads at the age of 24 tolstoy's book largely about the mount and gandhi finds release from hatred and violence. all of his life he said he had to battle against hatred. it was not easy for him and the amazing thing is that he won that battle and the even more amazing thing is that because of the belief given by him, so many indians enlisted to fight the british, but yet love the british. we want the british to leave india, but yet, we love you of the we want you to leave
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because it's good for india and good for you not to occupy another people. >> glenn: martin luther king, so much hatred. we all know the piece. how did he conquer the hate? >> my uncle, one of the classic examples was in montgomery, when his home was bombed and his baby daughters was there and his wife. and when he got home the first thing he thought about. he admitted thinking about getting a gun and retaliating in that manner, but he remembered his speeches, what he learned at the knee of his father, daddy, king, and he said no, i've got to go the way of my father's lessons and then soon after that, he wrote a speech called a knock at midnight, and he was tired, he was angry, he was hurting. and he said he heard the voice of jesus say, stand up for truth and stand up for
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justice. and so in those times when he was facing violence, anger, the threat of his family, wanting to get a gun himself, he reached back into those speeches, he reached back into the word of god and he became the man that we know that could follow after gandhi. it was a discipline, a yearning, a faith and believing what god had taught. >> glenn: okay. as i look at these revolutionaries, these great people, they all felt called. none of them wanted to do this. and the biggest battle they may have fought, i'm not sure about jesus and i'm not sure about moses, but at least the contemporary, people that we can relate to, was the hatred
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inside of them fell and it really is-- i've been talking about this 40 day and 40 night challenge, that we have to, the last line of the declaration of independence with firm relianceforfntoƱ ds wasf  
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(applaus (applause) >> all right.
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marsha is here. she has a question from the audience. go ahead, marsha. >> thank you, so much. i'm wondering what you think these men were just born great or whether the times, the circumstances demanded greatness. demanded revolution and the people brought forth leaders from mngs themselves. if you think it's the latter more than the former, then the implications that any of us, all of us could be transform tiff and powerful. i'd like to know your opinion on that. >> glenn: let's start at the beginning, moses. >> certainly, we can look comparatively, moses, also american presidents, generally speaking presidents considered to be great are presidents served during war time and that would suggest that the pressures and turbulence of war brought out everything good in these people and as you said, moses was a shepherd
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brought to greatness. he was not had a person that revealed naked ambition from day one, he didn't want this at all, but he accepted it and without question, he grew in office. so, i would say in general that that's the circumstances bring out resources of leadership, resources of courage, that many of us don't even know we possess in the first place. >> glenn: but it's also the same with jesus in the way, that he didn't want to do the things he did, he did them. but jesus, also, could have been-- gandhi didn't take the leadership role. martin luther king looking to get to the mountain top. moses didn't want it. jesus also, you're the son of god, you know what, guys, i'm a little done with you. but he didn't. it sometimes comes with great opportunity for power like washington. >> humility, to remind
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ourselves, this is my position, this is where i stand, but i could be wrong. i could be corrected by dialog with others and i think this is an interesting kind of self-criticism, even present in jesus in all of these men. >> and moses was mentioned as one-- >> gandhi, he transformed himself. >> well, you know, he writes of his boyhood, he was afraid, he was fearful of the dark, fearful of ghosts, fearful of serpents. he was a very timid boy, but he transformed himself. he transformed his destiny and i agree that each one of us can respond to the demands around us, the needs around us and transform ourselves. >> glenn: dr. king. >> it appears as though everything has been said as a part of that progress. god prepares leaders, as the
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times come forth and god calls us out of where we are into leadership. and so, god prepares us to lead and humility is a major part i always like what my uncle said, everybody can be a leader because everybody can serve. >> glenn: i want to show you a couple of things when we come back, final thoughts. (applause).
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(applause) >> in the studio audience a
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few minutes ago are people born great or did they transform? i believe they transformed. they just, the greatest american generation is always the one that steps to the plate and does it. 40 day and 40 night challenge. firm alliance we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and sacred honor, four steps that i asked you to do and take this challenge and make these things true, but let me boil them down here on what we've learned tonight from these amazing people. pray on your knees is one of them. step one, one of them is pray on your knees. that allows you to be humble. two, do the hard things, step two, do the hard things, that means pick up your stick. you may not want to do it, but pick up your stick. and three, give it up. not going to have the life that you wanted you're going to have to maybe give it up. that just means, let go and let god. just trust. firm reliance, and four, that four stopped t

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TOPIC FREQUENCY Us 22, Martin Luther King 11, India 11, Dr. Martin Luther King 9, Gandhi 6, America 6, Mahatma Gandhi 5, Egypt 3, Jesus 3, Jesus Christ 2, Dr. King 2, Alvita King 2, Lappin 2, Marsha 2, Washington 2, Illinois 2, Moses 2, China 2, Dr. Martin Luther 2, Indians 1
Network FOX News
Duration 00:59:59
Scanned in Annapolis, MD, USA
Source Comcast Cable
Tuner Port 1236
Video Codec mpeg2video
Audio Cocec mp2
Pixel width 720
Pixel height 480
Sponsor Internet Archive
Audio/Visual sound, color


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on 9/17/2010
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